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#### Is changing load on a turbomachine during 24hrs period damaging

Faisal Ali ·
Hi; At our fertilizer plant, Production targets are in focus and we keep to run machines as per their maximum operating load (given by vendors). However, due to temperature change in 24 hrs period and keeping plant important parameters in mind, load / speed of machine vary e.g 100 to 200 rpms changes. Experts veteran says that changing load so frequently will cause damage to machine and reduce the life of components. My question is - if we keep the machine parameters under vendor defined...
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Dave Thompson ·
Can anyone help with a simple definition for Transient Load have googled this and failed Regards

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

Joyce Brook ·
Hi, Could you please explain in which context you are trying to understend this?

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

Dave Thompson ·
Hi Thanks, it is related to Heinz Blocks FRETT analysis and he states that an item will fail if excessive force is appied and can be steady, transient or cyclic; similarly an item can fails due to high temperature i.e steady, transient or cyclic. Hope that helps & thanks

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

electricpete ·
I guess then transient load would be something that is brief/temporary. Example - the stresses that occur during DOL start of a motor. They are transient because they are seen for a short period of time.

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

Dave Thompson ·
Thanks DOL is that Direct Online strat??? Thanks Dave

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

Joyce Brook ·
The Wikipaedia definition of transient load is: In electrical engineering and mechanical engineering , a transient load or natural load is the response of a system to a change from equilibrium. The transient load is not necessarily tied to "on/off" events but to any event that affects the equilibrium of the system. The impulse response and step response are transient responses to a specific input (an impulse and a step, respectively). For load you can substitute temperature. Transient...

electricpete ·
Yes.

#### Re: Transient Load or Temperature

Dave Thompson ·
Thanks that makes sense, thanks again for the response
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#### Is Frequent Load Change on Turbomachine damaging ?

Faisal Ali ·
Hi; At our fertilizer plant, Production targets are in focus and we keep to run machines as per their maximum operating load (given by vendors). However, due to temperature change in 24 hrs period and keeping plant important parameters in mind, load / speed of machine vary e.g 100 to 200 rpms changes. Experts veteran says that changing load so frequently will cause damage to machine and reduce the life of components. My question is - if we keep the machine parameters under vendor defined...
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Ron Brook ·
I am assuming I need to use Rockwell FactoryTalk Activation to get this up and running. Emonitor loaded and runs fine with the demo data. The problem is FactoryTalk requires several other softwares loaded to run. Anyone else out there that has already been through this procedure? Regards, Ron Brook

Ron Stiemsma ·
I use Emonitor 3.7 but, I think it should work for 3.60.44 as well. I copy the Emonitor install disk to the C drive. Set the autorun file for Windows 7 compatibility and Run As Administrator. I install FactoryTalk first then Emonitor. I have not had any issues.

Ron Stiemsma ·
When my company pushed Windows 10 it did it two ways. Replaced the older computer or pushed Windows 10 if it was anewer PC. In all cases I had to reinstall Emonitor and FactoryTalk again. I copied the disk to the C drive made it Windows 7 compatible and ran it as admin. Never had any issues. I had to disable the driver protection to install the CMC driver for the new meter. I also had to make two register changes to get Windows Mobile Device Center to work properly. Have about 30 PC running...

Ron Brook ·
I called Rockwell and for some unexplained reason they had a different product code than what came with my disk many moons ago. license is now good! Emonitor runs without the time warning! however, it won’t let me change databases or paste in a template. Do I need to run in Windows 7?

Ron Stiemsma ·
Have not had those issues. I do have to run Emonitor as Administrator when I open it. Otherwise the database does not accept the data. Everything looks like it downloads ok but the data never shows up. If I run it as Admin it works fine. I have Emonitor set to always run as Admin so maybe that is why I do not see these errors. I change databases all the time. I am also using an SQL database. Maybe that makes a difference.

Ron Brook ·
I have Emonitor working in Windows 10 except for one large problem. I have had this problem in the past but couldn't tell you how I resolved it. Gupta will show that I have my old database connected in it's software, but when I try to change the database in Emonitor, it won't fly. So, in the meantime, I am creating templates for what I need and pasting them into the default Entek.dbs. I know, not elegant, but work needs to be done. Any suggestions on why Gupta isn't communicating? Thanks in...

Ron Brook ·
For anyone that may run into this problem, Here is the solution. I loaded Gupta and Emonitor but Emonitor would not let me change databases. I have three. The problem occurs when you add additional databases in Gupta, you need to shut down the Gupta SQLdatabase Engine for the changes to occur. In order to achieve this, go to 'Services' in your computer. Fine the Gupta SQLBase Server 1 and turn it off. Then change its starting to Automatic (delayed). This will make the changes to the...
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#### High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

Vibration Techn. ·
I collected vibration data during startup Gas turbine Generator , Speed 1800 rpm. High vibration alarm at 0.15 IPS rms, dominant peak is 1x rpm (30 Hz) during No-load test at NDE VT side, DE VT side reading at 0.05 IPS. Vibration NDE VT reduce to 0.05 when test on load. Please help me, why vibration high during No-load and drop when put on-load.
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#### Turbine Balancing

selvam99 ·
Dear Friends, We are facing one vibration issue in one of 660 MW turbo machinery. The vibration peak and phase datas are attached for your reference. The problem what we are facing is while performing balancing the FSNL vibration readings are drstically reduced however the full load vibration datas are further increased compared to before balancing datas. We have taken 3 trials. First trial we have added the weights in LP rotor- B both side( bearing plane 5 & bearing plane 6) We added...

#### Re: Turbine Balancing

Kishore kumar ·
Dear Sir , Please contact , one of my contacts have vast experience in Turbine Balancing .So that they will help you mob : 9908111814 / mail : kisagna@gmail.co m

Kishore kumar ·

#### Re: Turbine Balancing

Ngo Dinh ·
I think you should provide more information like history, trend of data, time of conducting field balancing comparing to time of FSNL (ex. 4hours from starting...), section drawing, which plane and position used to conduct field balancing, rotor mass, critical speed.... what is reason making you believe that this is due to unbalance? Have you consider to the other cause. For the large turbine, I think that it need sometime to get to thermal equilibrium and in the time the phase and vibration...

#### Re: Turbine Balancing

William_C._Foiles ·
The point raised by Mr. Ngo Dinh regarding reaching thermal equilibrium is crucial to balancing a turbine. I have reviewed some who tried to take short cuts by just getting to speed to take the measurements for a balance. Significant errors can occur in the balance calculation due to bad or inconsistent data. Ensure that the turbine vibration has stabilized - in whatever condition, loaded or unloaded that you choose -- prior to obtaining balance data.

#### Re: Turbine Balancing

Rotating Guy ·
Hi, Can you share the polar plot data. regards,

#### Re: Turbine Balancing

Chaitanya ·
I would like to add some relevant points regarding the background of this vibration problem: * The Relative shaft vibration trend of all the bearings were within limits till April 2nd week 2019. After 2nd Week, without any obvious reason the vibration trend at Bearing NO:5 (LP-B Rotor - Front Bearing) & Bearing No:7 (Generator Front Bearing) suddenly got increased. * Bearing No:7 was more susceptible and was getting influenced by Megawatt Loading of the UNit and day by day it increased...

John from PA ·

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

William_C._Foiles ·
John has given a good reference for thermal sensitivity of generators. Besides this, on startups I would rule out or not starting with a bowed rotor. Besides possible sensitivity or bow, these can be amplified by pedestal natural frequencies. On the stationary components I like to see multiple positions taken, because of the often directional nature of the response. Coast downs and startup plots are essential. Using shaft relative measurements can help. It makes differentiating relative...

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

Vibration Techn. ·
Thank you WILLIAM_C._FOILES , Bearing of bolt side of Gen is Deep Groove Ball Bearing and not have Displacement vibration probe installed. This Generator has experience high vibration alarm in vertical direction( Horizontal remain low) while running 1800 rpm (no-load), when synh generator on load vibration suddenly drop to 0.07 IPS,. and no have any vibration problem during normal operation. I would like to know while High vibration only No load condition. The problem can come from Exciter...

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

Vibration Techn. ·
vibration spectrum of Gen NDE VT in attached

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

John from PA ·
Can you supply make, model and size of this machine?

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

Vibration Techn. ·
Dear JOHN FROM PA, Attached is the Model of this skid,

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

John from PA ·
I believe that machine has sleeve bearings on the generator. What bearing are you referring to?

#### Re: High vibraiton on Genrator during No-Load

Vibration Techn. ·
Dear John, The generator Bearing No. A-7812R-110 ( SKF6322) is Ball bearing.

Robert U. ·
Ron, our machines were running Windows 7 and our IT people pushed Windows 10 onto our computers. Take a look at this thread. https://www.machineryanalysis....572208?&trail=15

Ron Brook ·
this is my main dilemma. Do I need to deactivate my license on my older windows 7 computer first, then get everything loaded in my windows 10 computer, then run factory talk and reactivate my license in the new computer? Yes?

Ron Stiemsma ·
My license was tied to the hard drive SN. So if I had to put it on a new computer I had to turn in the old license and get a new one for the new computer. If it is the same computer you can use the same license.

Ron Brook ·
Ron, I deactivated the license in my old computer, tried to re-activate it in my new computer to no avail. It said a license with that serial number and product code did not exist. So I called Rockwell and talked to the activation dept. He said I needed the newer FactoryTalk Activation Manager software. So I downloaded that. Same thing. So now I will call Rockwell again today to reset my license.........Ponderous..........

Ron Stiemsma ·
Glad you have it figured out.
Topic

#### GE frame 5 MS5001P Load Gear Quill Shaft Axial Movement

FSX ·
Hi every one We have a GE frame 5 Gas Turbine MS5001P coupled to Generator through reduction gear. Reduction gear is double helical. Pinion is coupled to turbine through gear type load coupling. Bull Gear shaft is hollow and a quill shaft is inserted in it. Generator Rotor is coupled to bull gear using quill shaft. Quill shaft has integral flange at generator end which is bolted to generator rotor flange. At the other end quill shaft has splines on outer dia and a hub with splines at inner...

#### Re: GE frame 5 MS5001P Load Gear Quill Shaft Axial Movement

John from PA ·
Wow, old drawing (1973)! Some designs, and I can't speak directly to what you show on the specific drawing , take into account bore growth at speed. So what may be tight while static becomes line to line or slightly loose at speed.
Topic

abdulbasitb ·
What changes are normally expected in the vibration spectra of a screw-type compressor when it's on-load vs. off-load?

OLI ·
I would say you either have a screw-type or a reciprocating (piston) type compressor but that may only be me. In either case difference on/off load can and normally are significant as far as I have seen. Olov

abdulbasitb ·
Sorry, I meant screw-type. I've made the correction. I wish to know what fault frequencies you normally find and how the amplitudes vary at the different frequencies, comparing off-load vs. on-load
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#### Shaft Center line Plot

Reliable Analyst ·
In startup transient of natural gas centrifugal compressor, the shaft centerline raised opposite to direction of rotation, till it reached to FSNL, then compressor was loaded and shaft centerline moved down but didn't followed the track it used during rising, but moved on right side. Kindly review the attached plot & share your comment that what could be the reason of pre-loaded condition, what is the force causing it deviate in that direction. TWF is also showing some truncation which...

#### Re: Shaft Center line Plot

John from PA ·
Interpreting a shaft centerline (SCL) plot can be a challenge and that is the reason it should be used as "secondary" information. In other words, we would not likely recommend an action solely based on an SCL plot. If however, we have other evidence of an issue, say for example a figure 8 shaped orbit, then we would use the SCL plot to support a conclusion of misalignment. In addition, it is highly recommended that shutdown data be used for the plot generation and appropriate reference data...

#### Re: Shaft Center line Plot

Reliable Analyst ·
yes I agree that the truncation in Orbit TWF is very minor, and even FFT is showing about 4 harmonics, I suspect it wouldn't be a full annular rub but might be a partial rub. As trending is concerned, the 1x offsets by 5-7 microns in each startup but remains stable during operation, we are going to have an annual outage shortly and we need to plan that what activity should we execute during outage to eliminate this pre-loading, what could be the reason of preloading is a major concern, I...

#### Re: Shaft Center line Plot

vibramac ·
My questions: Are the X/Y probe orientations correct? Is the SCL behaviour the same on each start up? What is the behaviour of SCL on run downs? If brg is adjacent to Cpl what type of Cpl? Brg type?

#### Re: Shaft Center line Plot

Reliable Analyst ·
X/Y orientation is correct, need to review the previous startups & run downs, yes the brg is next to coupling, cplng is gear type, driven by increaser gearbox output, the bearings are journal brgs, rpm is 10,000. The behavior of Compressor B ( its standby) is quite normal that SCL raises in direction of rotation and while loading it lowers but follow the same track it used to rise, i.e. SCL without any abnormality.